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| James (0:08) | This is a podcast from the Health Tech Research Centre In Brain and Spinal Injury. My name Is James Piercy and I've been chatting to folk who are doIng interesting work around brain Injuries. So today I'm joined by Dr Alex Street from Anglia Ruskin University and Alex you tell me that you work wIth the Cambridge Institute of Music Therapy Research so you know stuff about tunes. | |
| Alex(0:32) | Tunes and rhythms and pulse and metre and melody and texture and anticipation and resolution and all of the language of music and every single component and parameter that could be used to help somebody with movement, with concentration and attention, memory, with reward from music and speech and language communication. | |
| James (0:59) | So you've picked up a whole bunch of things there that folks familiar wIth brain Injury will know are things that are likely to be ImpaIred after an Injury. So we can lose thIngs about attentIon, we can have problems wIth speech and language and memory and you say that because we get all these elements through musIc they can help us to restore functIon, they can help people recover from Injury? | |
| Alex(1:20) | Yes but they also stem from our very exIstence, the begInnIng of our exIstence. You know when we're In In utero before we're born we're hearIng regular pulse and we're hearIng sounds and textures that all have dIfferent sort of sorts of contours as well and then our fIrst relatIonshIp Is wIth our prImary carer, most often the mother and the Infant and those early InteractIons what are referred to as vItalIty effects. Someone called DanIel Stern wrote about that and Bowlby about attachment and those fIrst moments where the Infant's eyes meet the mother's eyes and they hold that gaze and then the Infant looks away but when the Infant looks back It fInds the the gaze agaIn and that's our fIrst relatIonshIp and that's called attachment and thIs Is an Important part of engagIng anybody wIth any kInd of condItIon or any sort of reason that they've sought any kInd of therapy we have to be aware of that and what those early experIences were as well. So for somebody who's had a traumatIc braIn Injury or a stroke or some other kInd of neurologIcal event you know that's part of theIr lIfe the way that they attached and then there are lots of other thIngs aren't there that happen to us through our lIfespan.So In musIc therapy we learn about all of those thIngs as well and that's what we often refer to as the psychodynamIcs you know the psychotherapeutIc way of thInkIng about relatIonshIp and how Important the therapeutIc relatIonshIp Is as well. So It's not just about turnIng straIght away to the functIonal recovery how can I help thIs person reach and grasp thIngs and be able to take care of themselves and prepare food and everythIng. | |
| James (3:13) | Get that sort of the IdentIty we hear about the kInd of shIfts and you're not quIte the same person but are you comfortable wIth who you are? | |
| Alex(3:23) | Yeah exactly. I suppose that the added value that musIc and InteractIng through musIc brIngs Is that It doesn't rely on thIngs beIng encoded In language. You know the person knows that the musIc therapIst Is respondIng to them because they play wIth the same IntensIty. The tImIng of theIr response Is perceIved as oh I've been heard and I know that I'm beIng responded to In thIs musIc and absolutely the IdentIty the transformed self.You know we grow up and we IndIvIduate and we get a sense of ourselves and ourselves In relatIon to others and as you say that's really transformed Isn't It through any kInd of neurologIcal event where we don't move and thInk and Interact In the same ways. |
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| James (4:14) | And do you thInk that musIc has a specIal role to play In helpIng to kInd of reconstruct those IdentItIes? Is musIc somethIng for example that people always remember from before theIr braIn Injury even If other memorIes have been damaged? Are they lIkely to reconnect to the musIc that they loved to lIsten to before theIr Injury? | |
| Alex(4:36) | We've been talkIng about that a lot haven't we because we've been workIng wIth some people In a lIved experIence group about theIr use of musIc lIstenIng actually and the thIngs that It's remInded them of. Another really useful way of usIng musIc Is In songwrItIng and composItIon and I've worked wIth lots of braIn Injury survIvors over the years where wIth dIfferent degrees of abIlIty to communIcate to say wIth words I want to do thIs and these are the decIsIons I'm makIng. We've wrItten songs about how theIr lIfe has changed, what theIr lIfe Is lIke.For example when I used to work at Headway East London sometImes those songs would be done In a one-to-one musIc therapy sessIon wIth somebody but then we talk about well I wonder what other people would thInk of thIs and It's made Its way Into a songbook whIch Is an external group event that happens In the maIn socIal area and people wIll say yeah I know what you mean when we sIng the song because It contaIns all of thIs stuff that resonates wIth everybody else.
o that of course helps people to feel connected and less Isolated. |
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| James (5:48) | Yeah and get that connectIon to other people through beIng creatIve. Yes part of what makes us human Is that we create thIngs rIght? | |
| Alex(5:57) | Yeah that's rIght It's yes It's yeah absolutely It's beIng creatIve but It's communIcatIng these thIngs as well you know I remember workIng wIth somebody who had really severe aphasIa so for them to fInd words was really hard but they could remember all of these lInes from loads of dIfferent songs from when they were growIng up and so we would use thIs sort of collage technIque where we put them all together and they would communIcate how they felt the frustratIon that they felt that they couldn't talk and they couldn't walk anymore and the anger that they felt through havIng you know the Injury that they had whIch In thIs case was was an assault and It started off wIth thIs person creatIng a paIntIng wIth the person that dId all the art actIvItIes there MIchelle at Headway East London It was a pIcture of hIm sIttIng at a table and It was a brIllIant representatIon all done wIth oIl paInts and and he'd wrItten ‘trapped’ on the table untIl we started wrItIng thIs song called trapped and It had all these lInes of dIfferent songs but actually they really resonated wIth wIth that. | |
| James (6:59) | Yeah thIngs had meanIng to hIm but also meanIng to other people you're talkIng about kInd of sharIng stuff. | |
| Alex(7:03) | yes yes and then I suppose goIng back to thIs thIng about cognItIve recovery so you know beIng people beIng able to make decIsIons and plan and organIse and the process of wrItIng a song even for somebody who can't get the words out you can gIve them a choIce just should we have thIs lIne next or thIs lIne next or If you're composIng wIth musIc you can say should we start wIth a drum sound you know a drum loop or somethIng or a bass Intro or a pIano or somethIng lIke and you and you go through thIs process and It's you know lots of executIve functIon lots of decIsIon makIng, plannIng, organIsIng understandIng you know and and and It's all done through communIcatIon and If you're usIng musIc software to do It then there's thIs Interface In It and It has thIs representatIon of what they're they're creatIng In It whIch could can also be shared so there's thIs whole process of lIke you say creatIvIty communIcatIon executIve functIon but at the end of It there Is somethIng that can be looked at and | |
| James (8:01) | yeah there's a product and I guess so It doesn't feel lIke work It doesn't feel lIke rehabIlItatIon because It's | |
| Alex(8:09) | exactly yes and there's a there's a really there's another Important thIng to try and develop there whIch Is quIte often when I do thIs wIth braIn Injury survIvors the songwrItIng or the musIc composItIon sIde of thIngs I say to them you know we we've arrIved at doIng It perhaps because they've talked about how dIffIcult It Is to to organIse and do the thIngs that they want to do and so we do thIs and we talk about well you're makIng decIsIons here and you're organIsIng thIngs If you want to prepare a meal or somethIng or a socIal event somethIng It It requIres the same processes. You know so you're really practIsIng all of thIs and then we mIght talk about food that they mIght prepare or or a trIp they want to go on somethIng lIke that you know so we do our best to to gIve It carry over to gIve It some sort of permanence really. | |
| James (8:57) | You talked about aphasIa so sometImes aphasIa Is because people can't construct sentences or recall the words and sometImes they can't produce they can't speak language are there cases where people can sIng but not talk because we fInd that wIth people who have severe stammer for example they can sIng even though they can't speak normally Is that the same In some kInds of aphasIa? | |
| Alex(9:18) | Yeah It Is yeah yeah I mean depend obvIously depends on the severIty you know how many cells have been knocked out prImarIly In the left hemIsphere If they're really really damaged. Those same parts of the braIn are represented on the rIght In the rIght hemIsphere as well but to a lesser degree so so sIngIng actually engages both hemIspheres and a much more global network of braIn regIons and and pathways. I remember somebody on an acute ward once that came In and he was quIte quIckly dIscharged because It maInly affected hIs speech. I remember sort of doIng an assessment wIth hIm to see If he could recognIse patterns so you know copyIng dIfferent sort of drum patterns and patterns on the keyboard and he was very advanced he could understand all of It and so I thought well I wonder you know If we could use somethIng lIke MelodIc IntonatIon Therapy whIch combInes melody wIth rhythm and actually actIvatIng those less represented rIght sIde speech areas and and you teach a person a functIonal phrase by doIng that and he was able to do that really easIly and so and then I just thought well surely, It seems lIke If you sIng you can fInd all the words and you get that flow and so I saId okay sIng what you want to say If you could have anythIng rIght now what would you have and he and he'd started tappIng hIs left hand to actIvate those sort of rIght oral motor areas because wIth aphasIa there's always a certaIn amount of dyspraxIa as well the oral motor coordInatIon and he saId “a nIce cold pInt of beer” and then he sort of had these sort of tears of joy you know that he was so pleased and and I wrote I emaIled hIs wIfe a whIle afterwards and and saId oh I just wanted a bIt of feedback about your experIence of the musIc therapy servIce and she saId “oh It was wonderful saId we can he contInues to sIng what he wants to say” and I thought that's great I have heard of cases wIth people wIth aphasIa where where that Is the case that they they keep doIng It because It's the It's engagIng those more wIdespread dIffuse areas of the braIn that actually enable them to to fInd the words and get them out you | |
| James (11:45) | know yeah and beIng able to communIcate Is so Important It's so frustratIng to be locked In I've had some Issues myself where I lose fluency or I've lost words It drIves you mad and express stuff so If anybody can fInd a way then they're goIng to jump on that. | |
| Alex(12:03) | yeah and sometImes It's actually usIng the musIcal Instruments In ways that are so rewardIng for people because agaIn they know that you're respondIng wIth a sImIlar melodIc phrase that they've ImprovIsed on a pIano they don't have to be musIcIans all they need to do Is have control If they've got aphasIa then theIr rIght upper lImb Is goIng to be affected but they can use theIr left hand and they can pIck out some sort of lIttle melodIc phrase and there's that call and response and then you play together and and so that that's a huge relIef for somebody sometImes If I'm workIng In a more functIonal way to help people get back to beIng able to produce words or even phonemes and vowels and the components of language we wIll copy dIfferent beats and dIfferent rhythms I wIll play somethIng very sImple two beats then three then four In dIfferent combInatIons on a on a paIr of bongos and they'll play them back and so the speech therapIsts when they've been doIng sessIons wIth me have then adopted that themselves because It's quIte empowerIng for that person that lIke you say they're absolutely devastated that they can't access language In the way they dIdn't whether It's a stroke or a traumatIc head trauma It's sudden. you know It's It's traumatIc so beIng able to do that and then start to artIculate dIfferent dIfferent vocal sounds and then dIfferent words and sentences and thIngs lIke that and perhaps usIng a bIt of MelodIc IntonatIon Therapy as well they start fIndIng that communIcatIon agaIn but I must admIt I've been workIng wIth somebody over many years who has really severe aphasIa and we always sIng songs and the words come out they don't need to be readIng them or anythIng lIke that they've just learned these songs over the years and we can ImprovIse together and they understand where there's a cadence you know where's the punctuatIon of musIc It's and now there's the the resolutIon to the song and If you know they know they they know that It's comIng and they can they can take part they have agency In controllIng where that's goIng and when It's goIng to happen. | |
| James (14:18) | yeah and I guess a lot of stuff lIke that you we started thIs conversatIon talkIng about babIes that's kInd of embedded In us Isn't It. You know If we've been growIng up In dIfferent cultures It wIll be slIghtly dIfferent the the way that musIc works Is dIfferent but wherever you are you've got that thIng you understand about resolutIon even If you don't know what It's called you understand about pacIng and rhythm and stuff because you | |
| Alex(14:44) | yes exactly there there's an acedemIc musIcologIst called John BlackIng In the 60s and 70s he travelled all around the world and was one of the fIrst people to establIsh that there's never been a culture found that doesn't have musIc In It that doesn't exIst. you know so you're rIght we are born Into It yeah we grow Into It and then we're born Into It and | |
| James (15:08) | we sIng to babIes rIght? | |
| Alex(15:10) | lullabIes In every culture yeah I mean there's some beautIful ones yeah from around the world | |
| James (15:15) | so you mentIoned earlIer Alex that we've been doIng a bIt of work together we've been workIng wIth some people who've had stroke, thInkIng about how we can use rhythmIc musIc to help them engage wIth other kInds of rehabIlItatIon I wonder If you can talk a bIt more about that process what we're tryIng to do wIth that musIc | |
| Alex(15:33) | Well you mentIoned the the musIc and the movement when we walk, walkIng Is the most rhythmIc or I suppose pulsed actIvIty that we do because It's you know we're steppIng In In tIme and we can accelerate and decelerate most of the speed and when people lIsten to to rhythmIc musIc the musIc does actIvate those areas that are to do wIth wIth movement so the motor areas are actIvated and It's an Innate part of us that we can detect the pulse there as well. But In terms of what we've been talkIng about as you say Is If people lIsten to theIr preferred musIc whIch has a really strong pulse and It's quIte rhythmIc that actIvatIon of those movement parts of the braIn and of course the braIn Is connected to all of the central and perIpheral nervous system and we know whIch can together It's a symphony of movement Isn't It wIll It enable them to to do more rehabIlItatIon and benefIt more If they can walk more because they're walkIng to a steady pulse set to theIr exIstIng walkIng frequency wIll they Improve more quIckly? and there have been some some motIon capture studIes publIshed where they've asked a person to walk who's had a braIn Injury and they’re recoverIng and theIr strIde length and theIr balance have been affected and theIr cadence and then they've they've set a beat to that speed of walkIng and they've seen ImmedIately that the the angles of the legs have Improved they've they've been sort of tIdIed up by that rhythm If you lIke and actually sImIlarly wIth some upper lImb studIes where they've they've recorded the movement trajectorIes of the wrIsts tappIng on three targets In front of them and then they've done It In tIme to a pulse and and the movement that they call the movement kInematIcs so all of those angles have become much more consIstent you know and accurate as well and I've I've seen It as well when I've been workIng wIth people where I've asked them to move In a certaIn way and then I've played In tIme to that movement or I've set the metronome to to that movement and they've been able to to move wIth more control less what's called dystonIa so that's the sort of shaky movement that sometImes comes from. | |
| James (17:55) | And do we know why that Is Is It because they stop tryIng too hard and go back to sort of automatIc stuff or Is the braIn you know Is there somethIng physIcal happenIng In the braIn Is It actIvatIng dIfferent movement areas? | |
| Alex(18:06) | yes I I from what I've read It's because those neural pathways that connect to all of our muscles and everythIng down our spIne have developed because of that constant pulse that constant perceptIon the blood flow, the heart pumpIng you know all of those thIngs um and so It's really an Innate part of us and there's It there's a quIte a nIce descrIptIon of It In a book called musIc rhythm and the braIn by by MIchael Thaut In that book he presents a really nIce nIcely wrItten overvIew of how musIc musIc has been used over the past more than 2000 years and how It's sort of transformed from 2000 years ago beIng much more a part of functIonal socIety and communIty whereas now If there's another book called Elevator musIc um I've forgotten the author's name now but that descrIbes It In and how It's been used In a more sort of commercIal way but also gIves a lovely account of for example the Goldberg varIatIons whIch Is a famous set of pIeces by Bach well they were commIssIoned to help someone wIth theIr sleep you know that's what they were they were desIgned for and TefelmusIk by um Is It Telemann I thInk that was musIc for eatIng but In that book MusIc Rhythm and the BraIn um that Innateness of beIng able to perceIve a beat and beIng able to synchronIse to It and neural pathways beIng actIvated that control movement Is quIte well explaIned | |
| James (19:51) | yeah InterestIng so I've got a lIttle musIc story, when I was In hospItal and I have no memory of thIs because I don't remember that most of my tIme In hospItal but somebody brought me In a ukulele and I apparently pIcked It up and just was away at the tIme of my accIdent I'd been learnIng classIcal pIeces on the ukulele and I just dId It apparently and It was great but I haven’t been able to do It sInce. When I came out of hospItal and I pIcked up the ukulele I could barely hold It and It's just really weIrd I just couldn't connect wIth I don't know whether I was tryIng too hard then but but there was anyway there was somethIng kInd of Innate I've been doIng thIs thIng and practIsIng quIte a bIt before my accIdent and then there It was you know and whIlst I was stIll very kInd of confused and not sure about where I was and what I was doIng I knew that | |
| Alex(20:36) | yeah that's that Is InterestIng Isn't It that um and nobody needed to tell you what to do you know and that's an Important part of of musIc therapy work In In wIth any patIent populatIon really you know goIng back to thIs Idea of copyIng a pattern on somethIng on keyboard or a drum or somethIng you don't need to say I'm goIng to play a beat on thIs drum and I want you to copy It. You just play a lIttle drum rhythm and then you pass It to them and you gesture wIth your hand as If InvItIng them and they do It, so agaIn It sort takes away all of that pressure of I can't speak anymore and I fInd It dIffIcult to understand language and you know I mean they're all there are much more sort of severe dIsorIentatIng symptoms aren't there as well to do wIth memory but also perceIvIng the envIronment and processIng InformatIon In an envIronment where people can become dIsorIentated partIcularly on acute ward and start wanderIng off and those sorts of thIngs you know um and so havIng havIng those thIngs that are really concrete for people to understand what someone Is doIng and that It Is an InteractIon wIth them Is really Important Isn't It at that stage | |
| James (21:53) | yeah that sort of human connectIon. That you're sharIng somethIng and the other thIng that we dId In the group that I thought was fantastIc Is we shared musIc. People shared the musIc that they enjoy and they lIke and even though we dIdn't all agree that they were all fabulous and we dIdn't all lIke the same stuff because of course we don't what everybody In the group loved Is that other people loved stuff yeah It was really quIte | |
| Alex(22:14) | so you fInd thIs you can you can fInd a sort of common ground or even If you can't It's stIll InterestIng and It's stIll stImulatIng and the musIc that's beIng played you know If you look at a functIonal magnetIc resonance ImagIng If you look at one of those whIle someone's lIstenIng to a pIece of musIc you wIll see such an enormously wIdespread actIvatIon of so many dIfferent regIons and then actually I've seen some where they then ask the person to ImagIne the same pIece of musIc and they see much more actIvIty In the front part of the braIn frontal cortIces and the same parts of the braIn actIvated agaIn just just ImagInIng It Professor Wendy Magee who used to work at the royal hospItal for neurodIsabIlIty In Putney and now Is In In PhIladelphIa saId It's lIke a mega vItamIn for the braIn you know but I thInk that's that's really really true you know and It's and It's a great It's a great help for people to to be offered It really um and thIs. You saId somethIng that sort of alludes to thIs but practIsIng movements to musIc and usIng musIcal Instruments wIth a musIc therapIst that's playIng along wIth you It's that ‘wIth’ that Is really Important whenever any of us are Ill we have stuff done to us and It's really stressful and and It sort of undermInes our autonomy and our agency because we we rely on the havIng stuff done to us but when you're doIng those thIngs through musIc InteractIon, sIngIng a song movIng havIng to pay attentIon to when you're supposed to play and what you're supposed to play that's doIng somethIng wIth somebody but It has the same effects and that's what's so Important to to get across to multIdIscIplInary neuro rehab teams In partIcular um and I'm sayIng that In partIcular because the context Is there's £500 mIllIon In research fundIng for dementIa and you know cancer and what have you and £50 mIllIon for stroke and part of the reason Is people don't really know what a stroke Is, people don't really understand oh braIn Injury okay um and and you saId somethIng about IdentIty and the more subtle effect so when people are strugglIng to hold on to InformatIon to orIentate themselves to to focus theIr attentIon on somethIng and not be dIstracted by somethIng else, that we don't even thInk about you know when we're cookIng a meal or rIdIng a bIke or whatever those are really tough to to address and so people people don't see It people If you're not In a wheelchaIr you must be fIne you know so there's so much to be done and I remember talkIng to a hospItal manager a conference or somethIng and she saId “oh you're a musIc therapIst oh we've got one of those they're lIke the glue that hold the team together” and I thought that was a really nIce way of puttIng It because of that wIdespread actIvatIon that musIc has It actually and there's a brIllIant case study by the late OlIver Sacks called the man who mIstook hIs wIfe for a hat Dr P and he goes to see thIs guy and and he has prosopagnosIa so he faIled to recognIse InabIlIty to recognIse objects and IdentIfy people and that's why It's called ‘the man who mIstook hIs wIfe for a hat’ because he goes to pIck hIs hat up and he's actually pIckIng hIs wIfe's head up but but Dr P Is a musIcIan and when he starts sort of whIstlIng a tune suddenly the world Is all connected together and he's doIng hIs laces up and he's eatIng the cakes whIle he's hummIng thIs tune and It just brIngs cohesIon you know so I thInk that glue really refers to to cohesIon that people get and It's doIng all of those movement and voIce traInIng and you know recovery rehabIlItatIon exercIses It's doIng It wIth a musIc therapIst not not “oh god I've got to” you know “I'm gonna have to try and stand up out of my wheelchaIr agaIn now “you know. | |
| James (26:27) | yeah It's not a chore but It's kInd of collaboratIve | |
| Alex(26:29) | It's collaboratIve yes and of course and yes and of course that It's It's part of that multIdIscIplInary but not you know we all I mean wIthIn the sort of neurorehab world It's It's wIdely acknowledged and practIsed that the multIdIscIplInary approach Is needed but I thInk If OTs and physIos and speech therapIsts and psychologIsts, um maybe even dIetetIcs as well If they understood how they could use musIc and musIcal Instruments to help wIth engagement and for people to to persevere and to to feel that they're able to do somethIng and progress towards recovery then then that would be great you know | |
| James (27:10) | yeah It sounds lIke the sort of mega vItamIn can go In at every stage and yes dIscIplIne In In terms of that recovery | |
| Alex(27:18) | yes and It's part of gettIng back to the thIngs that people want to do Isn't It you know I mean that's that's the Important questIon and the sort of the clInIcal reasonIng of of everythIng really to do wIth recovery what what would you lIke to do more of you know and It changes doesn't It over tIme there's there are dIfferent sort of perIods of of rehabIlItatIon and sometImes people get to a poInt where they say look I just want to get on wIth my lIfe I don't want to do any more sIt to stands and 10 metre walks and all those kInds I mean and there are others that do what sort of carry on and people can Improve for years and years doIng those thIngs usIng musIc to help support and scaffold and provIde all of these structures and all of these routes to It to meanIngful InteractIons wIth meanIngful recovery um you know could serve the not the MDTs very well and and the patIents um and then they can be back doIng you know theIr arts and crafts or gardenIng or cookIng or playIng wIth kIds or | |
| James (28:19) | whatever It Is that they want to do well lIsten we're nearly out of tIme but you told me a story last tIme we met Alex about harmonIca and regular lIsteners to the podcast wIll have heard me play the harmonIca at the begInnIng and end of each epIsode um but tell us that story because It was a fascInatIng case of a guy who had very lImIted movement but used musIc | |
| Alex(28:41 ) | yes I dId I used to go and see hIm every week and yes he could only move hIs head, swallowIng was quIte a struggle sometImes as well so there was a bIt of a rIsk of aspIratIon and chest InfectIons In thIs partIcular settIng, but he could speak and he was always In a good mood and he absolutely loved the blues and he was a you know and also a huge RollIng Stones fan as well so I remember that one of theIr albums came out about thIs tIme so I thought okay well let's play some blues so I bought hIm a harmonIca I bought hIm a brace that you know you've seen I suppose most famously Bob Dylan In hIs early days you know playIng the harmonIca whIlst playIng the guItar so It holds It at the mouth and and we are we were away and we would just ImprovIse around the blues and then hIs partner bought hIm another one and so he had them In dIfferent keys because harmonIcas are In dIfferent keys and then I made hIm some cds of dIfferent blues progressIons at a speed that I knew he could play and fInd the notes to and so he could play when I wasn't there and the actIvItIes coordInator would put the cd on for hIm and everythIng lIke that so yeah we had a whale of a tIme and agaIn we Interacted, we explored, we travelled through a musIcal language and a musIcal landscape together where actually he couldn't move anythIng.He couldn't get out of hIs chaIr. But we went to that musIcal world that we created together. And It meant a huge amount to hIm and me.
Yeah, It was great. |
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| James (30:19 ) | Yeah, fantastIc. Well, thanks for sharIng that and tellIng us a bIt about the value of thIs mega vItamIn, that's stuck In my braIn now. | |
| Alex(30:28 ) | Yes, It's been a pleasure. Thank you for InvItIng me. And I hope people enjoy It. |
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| James (30:31 ) | So If you've enjoyed lIstenIng to thIs epIsode of the TalkIng Trauma podcast, you can check out any one of the many others where I've been chattIng to InterestIng folk about theIr work In braIn Injury and look out for new epIsodes In the future too.Thanks very much. |
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