Listen to James Piercy talk with Greg Dean, member of the HRC public oversight committee

Greg’s life changed in an instant when without warning he had a brain haemorrhage. Greg tells his story of injury and recovery and explains how he found it rewarding to help others, working first with Headway and more recently by joining the team with lived experience supporting the work of the Healthtech Research Centre

Headway UK
James (0:10)

You are listening to a podcast from the HealthTech Research Centre in Brain and Spinal Injury. We've been chatting to some innovators and some doctors and some therapists and we are talking to some people with lived experience of brain injury too. So I'm delighted to be joined today by Greg Dean.

Hi Greg, it's nice to see you.

Greg] (0:31) Morning James, lovely to see you too.
James](0:34) Greg, I just wanted to ask you a bit about your story really.
Can you kind of briefly explain what happened to you? What kind of brain injury did you have and when it happened?
Greg] (0:42) By all means.
Well we're going back about 10 years now and I was working for a big pharmaceutical company at the time and it was a normal Tuesday in January 2015. Left work, normal time, went off to the gym. I started training and quite quickly I realised it wasn't as normal.I went and spoke to the gym attendants to try and work out what was going on. I thought I slipped a disc. To cut a very long story short, I had my wife come and pick me up and the very last thing I remember is laying on the bathroom floor with my wife on the phone to 111 being checked to see if I've got meningitis or had a stroke.

I thought I've not had either of those and that's the last thing I remember for about a week. I turned out I had a subarachnoid haemorrhage, a non-aneurysmal as it turns out which is probably one of the better ones to have and I spent about three and a half weeks in Addenbrookes courtesy of that. Slightly complicated because some of the surgery that was performed to remove the blood that had pooled around my brain required a drain putting in and that drain unfortunately introduced an infection around my brain which was probably just about as damaging I think as the initial bleed.

So it took a little bit while to sort that out. When it came to about three and a half weeks out we were all quite positive that I was going to be discharged and everything was going to give or take, with a bit of time get back to normal.

James] (2:01) So you said about sort of three weeks then in hospital so what happened then was it a case of see you later Greg you're going to be okay?
Greg] (2:09) Well that was the interesting thing and we always kind of we tell the story that on discharge comments from the hospital were follow-up appointment in three months you might need to remind us to send you the reminder to come in and see us, and really the advice we were given at that point in time was don't go running for a while and avoid blows to the head which always seems like good life advice anyway to me. and sure enough come three months out we had to remind the hospital to have us back in for the appointment and really at that point we kind of thought though it would take some time. Cognitively I was really fine and to be honest you know my weaknesses were really much explained or felt like it was explained by the I've been laying up in bed for three and a half weeks and not really done very much. You know you don't expect to be feeling great at that point it's been through quite a major event so the fact that we didn't get much advice at that point in time and got no signposting towards any services made us come to the conclusion that really things would get back to normal though it might take some time and some effort.

I have a tendency as an ex-scientist of going into detail a little too much so there are two types of subarachnoid haemorrhages some which are called aneurysmal and they are typically there from birth and they're deformations of the of the arteries in the lining of the brain and those often require repair and often will come in clusters and again you'll be scanned and looked for them. Mine is termed as non-aneurysmal bleed and tends to be thought of as spontaneous and often induced by high blood pressure doing as I was at the time and so yes I was scanned in several different ways to see if they could find a bleed and there was nothing there and the chances were, I was told, that the bleed actually had stopped itself by the time I even got anywhere near a hospital. So the damage is done by blood pooling and what it tends to do is create pressure that affects the frontal lobes of your brain and gives damage around those specific areas of the brain.

James] (4:08) Okay so you're going out you're thinking yeah okay I'm gonna be sort of back on my feet and back to work fairly soon obviously I've had this traumatic experience but let's put that behind us and kind of move on but I'm guessing from your tone of voice that that's not what happened. So what kind of longer-term impacts have you seen?
Greg] (4:30) I guess the thing is to try and explain the story a little bit as it happened. So I mean I kind of was aware that the first six months was quite critical in regaining function and so over that period of time six to twelve months I was looking to try and see improvements in my stamina of doing things cognitively because I was aware that I was, in my mind at that time, tired shall we say and so trying to do certain things was quite demanding on me. But as I say having been through quite an ordeal at the time it wasn't surprising. So one of the other things I guess when you're ill you don't expect to do very much so you don't see what you can't do and not till often you try and do certain activities that you feel the deficit you've got around that area.

So for instance for six months I had my driving licence suspended I wasn't allowed to drive because in essence I had brain surgery. Inside my head I felt I could drive as per normal I didn't have any issues that I could get in the car I could drive for three hours on the road and not have a problem. When I got my licence back however though I can drive and can concentrate on it I can only do that when I'm not tired and I have a much more limited range in which I can time I can do that for.

So it's very much the time that it was a real slow discovery of where my issues lie because we weren't expecting to see any and it wasn't until I tried certain things that I suddenly realised that I was having problems in doing that and you think well with time given another few more months things will come back to you but at the six-month mark we realised that things weren't really as they should be and I was not cognitively functioning by that anyone would tell.

James] (6:11) Yeah so is fatigue the biggest issue?
Greg] (6:14) Without a shadow of a doubt so that is the elephant in the room for me. If I'm not fatigued then I can present as very neuronormal and have very little issues but that is a very finite amount of time that I can do that for. When tested, neuropsychological testing and stuff I can appear quite normal but if I'm actually tired I will get aphasia and basically I have deficits around my executive functions for the highfaluting term of it and that basically means all the attention type things that could be attending to one thing while having a background noise or trying to do two things at once or just sustaining concentration on reading a manuscript or painting a wall all those things kind of challenge my brain in the same way.
James] (7:00 ) Yeah and I guess you get that sort of negative spiral don't you because doing those things is hard work so you get tired which makes it harder to do the thing which means you start to get frustrated about a thing which makes you more tired and so on.
Greg] (7:12) Yeah no exactly and one of the things I like to try and explain this is the battery model of fatigue which basically in short says we all have a finite amount of battery power to do tasks whether we have brain injury or not. However with a brain injury you get through that battery a lot quicker to do those tasks and it requires an awful lot longer to actually then recharge that battery at the end of the day so it's not simply a case of just sleeping things off.
James] (7:39) Yeah yeah I'd certainly I found with my fatigue that it wasn't like I was tired out because I've been running I was tired because I was worried that I should have gone for a run and it was a different kind of tired and having to sleep wouldn't necessarily make any difference at all.
Greg] (7:55) Yeah no exactly I would agree with that and certain things where I would have exercised to feel good after a heavy day if I do that now I will feel ill for a couple of days afterwards and that's that's the thing that the frame of reference I just didn't have and that's one of the hardest things that I've found to communicate to people is how fatigue is different from tiredness and you can't treat it the same way and if you do you’ll come a cropper.
James] (8:21) Yeah so here you are sort of ten years on and that's still clearly a big issue for you. To look at you couldn't tell that there's anything wrong with Greg at all you look perfectly you're clearly intelligent you clearly have great sort of background knowledge and experience and yet you're kind of debilitated still by these kind of executive problems and this fatigue.
Greg] (8:45) Yeah to be honest I would say that the bulk of my recovery was done within two or three months and really the things that I have the improvements I have made since then have been done by understanding my issues and learning to live with them work with them well. So yeah ten years out and it's very much the same as it was for me I've not been able to work past those brain injuries that have occurred.
James] (9:11) Yeah but have you developed some sort of strategies to cope you know one of the things I had to do quite a long was to plan my time and I still do that you know on the wall in the kitchen there is a list of what we're having for dinner for the next week so I haven't got to think about that I've done that work already. Have you got sort of systems and mechanisms that help you to kind of accommodate that fatigue?
Greg] (9:32) Most definitely so one of the best things I did was contact Headway and I worked with Headway neuro OT. Who helped me understand which of the things demanded most of and caused most fatigue and which things shouldn't be combined with other activities and then put things like compensations as you described the planner on the wall to try and make sure you minimise some of the loads on cognitive so I will structure mydays and my weeks around activities so like the activity we're doing here today I would have done some prep for that yesterday to make sure that I was not trying to think on my feet when I was speaking to you and I will have a quiet day for the rest of the day today I wouldn't go and get in the car I wouldn't go off and see lots of people and try and do stuff so it's a case of pacing it and then that way you can live with it.

I think that's one of the hard things for folks to see because they see a glimpse of you being able to do those things I see you James and you seem like you're just living a normal life and you know you didn't have to do those planning and I think it's good that we can do that and we can we can live that way but it doesn't always go to plan and when it doesn't go to plan it's very hard then to kind of explain to folks why that is.

James] (10:43) Yeah and it might be something that's unnoticeable to other people but for you it's a big trigger so for me that is stress. If I get worried and concerned about something then I'm gone. I get aphasia, I won't be able to speak fluently and I just need to go and lie down in a dark room or something.
Greg] (11:01) Yeah no I completely realise and so aphasia is one of the ones that if I know I'm starting to search for my words that's my best trigger to know that I really need to calm down and do something different and take it away. Go and have a quiet moment or whatever as a real sign and. Yeah that's it's one of those things that helps you recognise when you do need to take a break.
James] (11:23) Yeah so you mentioned Headway. I recorded one of these podcasts with somebody from Headway Cambridge and Peterborough just the other day so listen out for that folks. But you also got a bit involved in Headway yourself didn't you?

I guess trying to give something back to the community.

Greg] (11:36) Yes most definitely I was absolutely pleased to be invited to become a trustee with lived experience basically someone that knows what it's like from the other side of things and unfortunately that was at the start of Covid so it was a little bit limited to start with them and how we could we could interact but it was one of the most rewarding things to do because I felt that Headway is one of those services that plugs the holes that are in the statutory service and provision that we have within this country. On a regional level they are they’re lifesavers and they provide a lifeline to people in so many different ways and be it from just day service for folks that need somewhere to go, carers need a respite for that day or people like myself who benefit so much from having neuro OT and those kind of services. So their remit is broad as is their impact.

So it was something that I found the most rewarding things I've done since stepping back from work.

James] (12:41) Yeah and did you find it helpful that you were helping other people? It's quite cathartic to be able to talk about staff but it's also you feel like you have value when you're doing things for other people.
Greg] (12:53) Oh most definitely I mean I think one of the things from quite a self-centred point of view to actually have a purpose within the day where I could feel like I've achieved something but in an environment where people understood my brain injury and when I was then helping people like myself it just felt like a win on so many levels that it gave me more of a purpose to what I was doing. At the end of the week I felt like I achieved something.
James] (13:18) Yeah I guess it's kind of reconstructing the Greg identity right who is Greg because he's not the scientist that he was before but he still has a lot to kind of offer to the world right and that's how we sort of move forward. So I've been on a kind of similar journey myself I think in some ways.
Greg] (13:37) I mean I would so recommend volunteering to people for organisations like Headway because I think people say “what have I got to offer them?” I think especially from some certain backgrounds you can bring, you don't have to have relevant experience of brain injury you know you could be an HR professional you could be a finance professional all those things are highly valued within that environment and just bringing transferable skills to that to those board meetings can make so much of a difference to how efficiently that organisation runs and then delivers service for people like ourselves. So I would recommend it to anyone that thinks they could offer something.
James] (14:18) Well folks you heard it here, get on to your local branch and offer your services whatever they might be because they would be certainly very valued. And Greg you are a member of the Public Oversight Committee so that is a group of people with lived experience who support the work of the Health Research Centre. I just wonder why you thought that might be a useful thing to join?
Greg] (14:40) Having been involved as a PPI subject in some of the work that had occurred through the Health Tech when I was invited I felt it was a chance to help direct that work a little bit further and again try and take my experience and help use that to help further the work of the organisation.
James] (15:07) Yeah and certainly that's gone the remit of that committee I guess is partly is to make sure I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing but also it's there's always this thing about the unknown unknowns isn't there? I don't know what you're missing until somebody with the experience of it can tell you what that is and I think that's really kind of one of the main purposes of that committee is just kind of just remind us about the things that we forget although we don't kind of pay attention to so much.
Greg] (15:35) I just felt it was a nice opportunity to be back involved in an environment with other folks in a similar situation to myself helping sort of hopefully potentially deliver some changes. We you know we feel there's a lot of gaps within the stuff you're offering within the UK and I think if you can do anything to try and help make things more coherent, no coherent is maybe not the right word, more holistic in what is there for people like ourselves then that happens at many different levels and that's got to start with research and then it comes the way through from an evidence base which can then be used to help direct services that people like us get. So it all happens on many different levels so the chance to interact at that end especially I guess maybe where it's more researchy that's something that did appeal to me because that appealed to my background.

It's very different research but it's an environment that doesn't feel that unfamiliar to me so I guess that's one of the other things that kind of drew me to the opportunity.

James] (16:40) Yeah and that's sort of really valuable skill set to bring actually because you know we are about conducting and supporting research and building evidence base for the technologies that are kind of under development so having an understanding of the research cycle and how that process works is quite a valuable thing I think to bring to the team. So we are a health tech research centre. I just wonder in your sort of journey over the last 10 years have there been technologies that you yourself have found valuable or alternatively have there been gaps where you thought I really could have done with a thing that could have done that for me?
Greg] (17:16) I think one of the greatest aids and it's a very sad thing to say is the smartphone because the smartphone allows you to write down notes, set alarms, set reminders. It has maps on it to help you do directions. You can even save pre-determined routes on a map on the phone so you can see where you're going and that for me has been a lifesaver.

As for gaps I mean some of the work that I've done through NIHR as a patient, things like fatigue tracking apps. It was a brilliant idea I'm not sure that's come to fruition or not but I think when you're first faced with something like understanding that you suffer from fatigue it's a very nebulous concept and actually something that actually helps you see and understand how you're impacted by that and how certain things interplay with each other. That was an absolutely brilliant idea so hopefully something is happening with that work.

James] (18:20) Yeah those things I guess to help identify those triggers and for you to be able to see that okay I've done this before and I know that in a couple of days time I'll be better.
Greg] (18:33) Exactly because I mean if you don't know what fatigue is and what those issues are they come out in the blue you have no idea what you've just done to yourself. I can remember the very first day that I fatigued myself went out on the bike and I was very careful not to go too far and I couldn't understand why I was literally ill for the next two days. So you know if you can kind of help people understand why that is.

I think you still need to have the experience to really understand what's going on but that kind of thing for me would be invaluable. I think for other folks I mean there's anything where just making some of that load on planning and organising that kind of where you can create stress moments that if it's not there it will be so much more valuable. So making that interface for technology for folks that are less cognitively or more cognitively impaired will be a big challenge to make things better for those folks, more accessible for folks.

James] (19:33) Yeah and I guess equally for the friends and family of those people as well to understand what's going on and how best they can support their loved ones.
Greg] (19:42) I mean that's a very good point I'm being very centric from the patient point of view but equally the family and friends of those people have got as much of a challenge if not more so to try and understand how their loved one has changed. Anything we can kind of do to help folks like that it's a big thing and I think you know trying to get some of the public involvement work I've done it's as much because I do see how different folks react to you with a brain injury and some people get it, some people just accept it and some people just can't accept it. So trying to understand how we can better communicate where our issues lies has been a big driver for me over the past 10 years.
James] (20:18) Yeah and that is what you've done in our last 20 or so minutes together and I'm sure that people listening to the podcast will be able to take stuff away. What's really really valuable I found is just somebody kind of gets it. You know if there are people listening to this who are having similar issues with fatigue –“I'm not on my own.”

Greg's there with me too right and he's been through it and he's finding ways to cope and to manage things and suggesting those kinds of technologies as well to support is a really valuable thing to do. Well listen we have been chatting for quite a while now and I'm conscious that sitting in front of a screen like this makes us both very tired so I'm going to wrap up there. Thanks ever so much for your time Greg, really appreciate your input on the call today.

Greg] (20:59) Absolute pleasure, it's been a pleasure talking to you James, thanks for having us.
James] (21:09) So you've been listening to a podcast from the HealthTech Research Centre in Brain and Spinal Injury. If you'd like to check out more content like this you can find the rest of the episodes in this series and share them with all of your friends and colleagues too. Thanks so much and goodbye.

More like this:

  • NIHR Impact video

    What to understand more about what the NIHR funding does? Listen to Professor Peter Hutchinson, Director of [...]

    Click here to see more!
  • Patient Involvement Podcast – Jesús

    Listen to James Piercy talk with Jesús, a member of our Public Oversight Committee, who suffered from [...]

    Click here to see more!
  • INTS 2024 – Wednesday 4th September

    The International NeuroTrauma Society (INTS) had a successful Symposium this year, [...]

    Click here to see more!